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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
When the time comes for you to kinda go, this is going on, everybody around them is so snowed and their public persona is so positive they go I just can't believe that this is true.
Voiceover:Welcome to the narcissist abuse recovery channel with John McKinney and Padida Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Padideh, it's good to see you again. Good afternoon. How is
Padideh Jafari:Hi. How are you?
Jon McKenney:Good. How's sunny California?
Padideh Jafari:It's good, actually. Last week, we were in on the East Coast. We went to New York, our other home there.
Jon McKenney:Oh, nice. Good.
Padideh Jafari:And then we flew to Chicago and drove to Wisconsin Madison, where my middle child you know, I'm a stepmom of three. Yes. I don't want to say child because he's like six foot two. He is still my kid.
Jon McKenney:They're always kids. He
Padideh Jafari:graduated from the University of Wisconsin Madison. And so it's nice to have the second child out of college. And then we have a third child who graduates next year from the University of Tampa. So I'm really, really excited not to be paying tuition anymore, as I'm sure most of our listeners feel that way when their kids graduate.
Jon McKenney:Oh, yeah. The first step is graduating college, and step number two is getting them off the payroll.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. And you know all about that, John.
Jon McKenney:I do. I had four and they're all off the payroll. So it's it's kind of nice again to, have a little money. So guess what happened here this past weekend? You would think that, that this would be a California thing, but we had an earthquake here in Georgia.
Jon McKenney:So Oh my goodness. It was it was epicenter in Tennessee, four point one, I think, on the Richter scale, and it made things shake here this past Saturday morning. I was at a funeral, and things are kind of vibrating a little bit, so it was ridiculous. And the kinds of things I'm I'm not really excited about. One of the reasons I don't live in California.
Padideh Jafari:Wow, that's amazing. But you are coming to California next month?
Jon McKenney:I am.
Padideh Jafari:And what's the reason you're coming to California?
Jon McKenney:We are having a podcast launch party and I can't wait.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, me too. It's actually at a really, really nice place. It's where I usually hang out with my girlfriends. So I'm really excited to have this launch party there.
Jon McKenney:Awesome. Well, it's going to be great to see you again and, it's going be great to celebrate our launch as well. So I'm really thrilled. Today we've got we're going to have some fun. Well, I don't know whether it's fun or not, not if you're in it.
Jon McKenney:But, today we want to talk about covert narcissists and, covert narcissism and how it differs some from perhaps, narcissists you may understand. And, and we wanted to to kinda connect on that thought today. So tell me what you understand about covert narcissists.
Padideh Jafari:They are actually evil people. They're spiritually devoid of any humanity whatsoever. They lack severe empathy. They're very selfish people. And they ruin other people's lives, like innocent people's lives.
Padideh Jafari:Obviously, I know this through not only my personal life with the narcissists I deal with, families, friends, neighbors, and things like that, but also professionally as a divorce attorney of twenty two years, you know, I've met my fair share of narcissists, as you can imagine.
Jon McKenney:I'm sure you have. And what what's what fascinates me, one of the words you use, because I've used the same word. The word is evil. It's a very it's a very spiritual word. And, I had I'd been talking to one of my coworkers one time and kind of described, narcissist is evil and mine certainly was the covert narcissist variety.
Jon McKenney:And and his response to me was, that's a really harsh thing to say about somebody. And the interesting thing I have found in connecting with people online and in some coaching, that word evil is perhaps the most common word I've heard used to describe, particularly covert narcissists. And it and it being a spiritual word, it comes from people who would consider themselves spiritual and those also who don't consider themselves spiritual. So that's a really fascinating word to just first come out of your mouth to say they tend to be evil people.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, and I want to make sure that I'm not sugarcoating this. They are absolutely spiritually devoid of any goodness. And so I've seen these covert narcissists, which I actually believe covert narcissists are worse than the malignant overt narcissists
Jon McKenney:I would agree.
Padideh Jafari:Because they fly under the weight radar, which, you know, we've talked about that multiple times.
Jon McKenney:Better the devil you see than the one you don't.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. Exactly. And it's like the devil you see, right, which is the overt narcissist. You're like, Okay, most people can spot that person in a room. They walk in, and you're like, Okay, this person is flamboyant.
Padideh Jafari:They're this or that. It's the covert narcissists that really are so traumatizing to someone's soul because nobody believes the victim. Nobody believes them because to the outside world, they seem like such a nice person. Oh my gosh, they're so nice. How could you even begin to call them evil, right?
Padideh Jafari:But then the person that's living with them and their children, maybe even their coworkers, they know that sinister side of them.
Jon McKenney:It's really interesting you describe this. There's kind of a duality in covert narcissists that perhaps doesn't exist in what we call overt narcissists. Overt narcissists, like you described, people who, generally speaking, you know they're a narcissist. It's obvious to everybody around that they have narcissistic tendencies. They tend to be very difficult to get along with.
Jon McKenney:They tend to be very aggressive. They can be very hurtful. And then you have this group of people who we call covert narcissists who fly under the radar, who actually live in such a way that their public persona is the most important thing. In fact, they they decide whether whether things are right or wrong based on how the public perceives them. Whether they're right or wrong or not, has nothing to do with the conscience.
Jon McKenney:It's it's how does the public see me? And if the public sees them favorably, then it's a right thing to do. And if a public sees them unfavorably, then it's a wrong thing to do. And this kind of flying under the radar sets the victim in a place where nobody believes them.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:And it's a so so you've got this what what you have is a situation where you have you have this ridiculous abuse going on in private. And if it's a if it's a spouse, you may be the only one that sees it. And even if you have kids, your kids may not be aware this is going on because it's it's a private battle. And and and oftentimes covert narcissists are put themselves in a place where they really want to be the winners of the children's hearts. At some level, want to win the kids, and it starts very, very young so that even the children that are in the home may not understand that they're actually dealing with a covert narcissist in any way, shape, or form.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, you're absolutely right. It just might be the spouse. Sometimes they feel like later on, as the children age out and they start maybe even their own families, they realize, wait a minute, my parent was a narcissist. I see that a lot, John, on TikTok these days, because I like to scroll on TikTok at night, like many people do, and TikTok and Instagram. And I hear the children of these narcissistic usually they're covert narcissistic mothers say, we are no contact with our mother, and this is why.
Padideh Jafari:And so we're going to go through some of the qualities and the traits of a covert narcissist, because I feel like a lot of times, victims don't believe even when you say, hey, that person is narcissistic or is a narcissist. They don't believe us because they're like, well, what are the signs or what are the traits that we're going to, I think, go over like four or five traits of a covert narcissist today.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. There are a whole lot more than that even. We may get to more, but you're absolutely correct. And because they fly under the radar, it's important to know something about them. One of the things that oftentimes distinguishes somebody you might typically call a narcissist is that they tend to be aggressive and covert narcissists are not aggressive.
Jon McKenney:In fact go ahead.
Padideh Jafari:I would say I don't know necessarily that I agree with that. That's such a legal way of saying I don't agree. Only because they are bullies. And so you're right in the sense that they're not overtly bullying you, but they're doing things to undermine. To me, that's sort of bullying.
Padideh Jafari:But yes,
Jon McKenney:that's so much I would It's absolutely, but again, flies under the radar. It's not the in your face kind of aggression that you would normally see with a narcissist. Oftentimes, they may not start the fight, but they push you to the point. They'll do something that pushes you to the point where you start the fight, and then of course they become the victim, from from from their abuse. And it's it's unfortunate because, again, they're pushing the buttons.
Jon McKenney:Somebody responds to this button pushing, and they they keep pushing the buttons until the person responds. And then you get this anger or rage from the victim, and and the the covert narcissist will say, oh, you know what? You're You're bullying me. You're angry with me, so you must be the crazy one.
Padideh Jafari:Correct, 100%. So let's go over some of those traits. I know with your situation, your ex wife is a covert narcissist. I think you had said at some point that she was actually diagnosed as a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:She was.
Padideh Jafari:So crazy to me because most of them never go into a psychotherapist's office to get diagnosed correctly. So tell me a little bit about that.
Jon McKenney:So I actually had through a business encounter met somebody who was a therapist and went to talk to them about business. Honestly, of the great, greatest gifts of my life, this sweet woman, she sat down with me and we talked about business. And then at some point in time, I transitioned the conversation and we were kind of done. And I said, so can I shift the conversation a minute? She goes, sure.
Jon McKenney:And I go, I really think I'm being abused by a narcissist. And she grabbed her legal pad and pen, and she just, for the next two hours, just sat and listened to me bleed. And, I insisted on paying her and did, even though she didn't wanna take money, which was ultimately super kind as well, but just locked into me and dialed into me one of the greatest gifts of my life. Her name was Bridget, in fact. If you're listening, thank you so much.
Jon McKenney:That was absolutely amazing. And I I continued to see her to to try to heal from the narcissistic abuse I was I was enduring. I was super low at the time, and she came in, and God put me at just the right in just the right time and just the right place. Well, I didn't tell my person who is my wife, who's now my ex. I didn't tell her that I was going to see her, and she found out, I don't know whether it was through a receipt or some other kind of way that I I started to see her and got livid with me that I would go and get help.
Jon McKenney:So I said, hey. Well, I mean, if you'd if you'd like to come, you're welcome to come. And invited her into the sessions, And she was diagnosed by this particular professional as a narcissist in the covert variety. So that's that's how I found out. Most people who are in my situation don't have the luxury of of having somebody having their their narcissist get diagnosed.
Jon McKenney:But I was fortunate enough to have that done.
Padideh Jafari:Wow. So what is one of the qualities that you noticed either before this therapy session or meeting Bridget or after that you started to kind of notice, Okay, this is a narcissistic trait? Like, me how that came about and what one of the qualities are.
Jon McKenney:So mostly for me, behind the scenes, it was an inability to resolve anything and something we call toxic amnesia. There are there there are two I think there are two different kinds of victims. There are those who kind of let the narcissist kind of bully and and and the the victim becomes more passive and kind of doesn't want to deal with them and doesn't correct them. And I was just not that guy being the the man of the house, and I took that role seriously, and I took the the role to lead my family and my wife seriously, I I stepped into those conversations where she was off and lying and pretending and making up stories and worked tirelessly, and I mean tirelessly, to try and bring us to a place of agreement where we could kind of move forward. Some of these conversations wound up being very heated, to be honest with you, because the narcissist doesn't want to deal with what's going on.
Jon McKenney:They just pretend it's not there. So after what was oftentimes an hour or two of pretending and me kind of, no, you did this, you did this. Okay, let's not lie. You did this. She'd finally agree, and we'd talk about what the appropriate direction was, and we'd go to sleep with that.
Jon McKenney:The next morning, she'd do the same exact thing that she said she wasn't going to do and that she'd agreed not to go do. And then when I went back to the conversation, it was like, what conversation? I don't know what you're talking about. We didn't talk about that. So that was the thing that drove me nuts.
Jon McKenney:I couldn't ever move forward. I couldn't ever get us to a place where there was ever alignment or agreement. And even with a therapist, sitting in front of a therapist also sometimes, the therapist would try to get her to do this stuff too. She would agree and then come back and go, Yeah, I just didn't do it. Wasn't important to me.
Padideh Jafari:So Well, like, give me an example of that. Just give me one example of it.
Jon McKenney:So there was a time where we were going to go on vacation. We usually would do these family vacations in Upstate New York. And my narcissist ex and I decided family actually lived in the Midwest, and we decided we were gonna have to go visit them instead of going on a family vacation with my extended family, which we hated to do because it was an annual almost family reunion. It was very important to us, we'd spent a lot of years up there. And my sisters were there with kids and all of this other stuff.
Jon McKenney:So it was it was a a blow. And we we decided was this. You know what? We we said, let's let's go put $500 down on the Upstate New York thing. And if we lose it, we lose it.
Jon McKenney:We don't have to decide and pay until a week before, and we can see if the money's present to go do both things. And if not, you know, we'll we'll do it. So I said, but I I really don't think this is something we can tell my family we're going to surprise them with. We really I would prefer us keep this to ourselves. I don't want the kids to know.
Jon McKenney:I don't want to get their hopes up and then dash them. So let's keep this to ourselves and not discuss it. She said, Oh, that makes all kinds of sense. Let's keep this to ourselves. And I said, We can't tell We're not gonna tell my parents.
Jon McKenney:We're not gonna tell my sisters. We're not gonna tell our kids. If this happens, it'll be a pleasant surprise for everybody at the very end. She goes, that would be great. So the next day, she called my sister and told her.
Padideh Jafari:Told her what?
Jon McKenney:Told her the whole thing.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney:Told her everything that we discussed that we were not going to say. And when I confronted her, she said, I said, Why would you do this? We agreed together not to go do this. And she goes, Oh, I just didn't think it was important. And at the time we'd been seeing a therapist and I brought this story to the therapist and the therapist said, Is that true?
Jon McKenney:And she says, Yeah, it was just kind of no big deal. So it really didn't matter to me. So I didn't care. And it ended right there. The therapist said to her, at that point in time, looked at her and said, You know what?
Jon McKenney:I think you guys need to separate because this is just not going to work out. And she goes, is this kind of from what I'm doing? She's like, yeah, this is what you're doing. These are the kinds of things people divorce over. And and these kinds of things for me were were consistently just really ridiculous and a problem.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, can tell you as a divorce attorney that it's not just people listening are going to be like, he divorced her over this one action. No. There's a root cause to what she did, which is she undermined you. And furthermore, she did it with your own family.
Padideh Jafari:So she didn't even give you the benefit of the doubt to say, hey, you know what? I've changed my mind. Because I've done this with my husband. Or I'm like, you know what? I know we discuss this, but I slept on it and I changed my mind.
Padideh Jafari:Like, can we revisit this and then come to maybe a different agreement or whatever? And he's like, yeah, you know what? So that's a different conversation when you're actually going back to your spouse and saying, can we revisit something because I've had a change of heart or whatever it is. But I know from your story, this is the unfortunate thing is that most of your family is gone and believed her side of the
Jon McKenney:divorce. And
Padideh Jafari:this is one way which looking back on it, you probably know this already that she was trying to triangulate and say, look, look, I told my sister-in-law, oh, and John didn't want you to know. But don't tell him that I said that, right? She's making that with her sister-in-law, she's the savior, she's gonna tell them the secrets. I mean, it's awful. Like my heart just sank when you said this story because it's such a bigger issue
Jon McKenney:Oh, yeah.
Padideh Jafari:What she did.
Jon McKenney:It's it's death by paper cuts. You know what the most bizarre thing about this was, Padilla? She told me the next evening that she'd done this. We'd we'd had a conversation, like, on a Tuesday night, And she told me Wednesday night while she's making dinner, she goes, oh, by the way, I was talking to your sister about what we're gonna go do and how we're not telling anybody. And and I said, I was like, what?
Jon McKenney:Like, she told me she told me she'd done it. Like we didn't ever have that conversation. Don't you remember this? Think is we discussed this yesterday. You're not going to go do this.
Jon McKenney:Then again, when she retold the story, told I remember the therapist asked me what happened and I went and told her what happened. And she retold the same exact story to the therapist expecting a different response. And the therapist is like, you're out of your mind.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:So, you know, and I genuinely think she expected to tell the same exact story and get a different response from the therapist. And of course she didn't. One the others, and this toxic amnesia behind the scenes will drive you nuts. Yes, it will drive you absolutely nuts. One of the things that I can remember also.
Jon McKenney:Taking place was in a pastoral call. We didn't see. We were both involved in it at the same church and visited our pastor one time. And I decided I was going to sit there and let her speak and only to provide truth. So he would ask her questions, and she would answer, and I would go, please tell this man the truth.
Jon McKenney:That's all I do. And she'd get a little closer to it, and I would go, please tell this man the truth. I did this for an hour. Please tell this man the truth. Please tell this man the truth.
Jon McKenney:Please tell this man the truth. And finally, I think he had a decent enough picture of what was going on. And he said, let me let me ask a question. He says, I think I I think I understand what's going on. He he said to my my ex, he said, so it seems like your issues kind of predate John.
Jon McKenney:Like, you had these kind of issues before you got married, you know, and and you're still dealing with them and or not, and it's causing a heartache. He goes, yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely correct. She said, yeah, that's absolutely correct.
Jon McKenney:When so then he said, let me let me ask you a follow-up question. And he said to her, did you ever love your husband? And she looked at him and she said, no. I I never really did love him. He was like, the the knife through the chest.
Jon McKenney:It's like, in that moment, you you go, this whole thing was a sham. Why in the hell did did you would you marry somebody you don't even love? And I was was crushed. I was absolutely crushed. And he looked at me and he said, you're you're angry.
Jon McKenney:And I'm like, you think? You know, I said I started with that when I walked in here. I told you I was angry. And these kinds of things, marrying somebody who says they don't love you, they can make somebody angry because it's 25 later, and I'm still dealing with this. And and we we got home and settled in.
Jon McKenney:I we had a little quiet time after the kids were in bed, and I can remember saying to her quietly. I said, I just want you to know that what you said today in our session with a pastor really hurt. And she goes, what did I say? And I said, you told me that you'd never love me even before we were married. She said, I didn't say that.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney:Never never said that. And and I was, yeah, I don't know what to like, when you get into those moments, one, it's so jolting when you hear it, and then it's so jolting when they unsay it, and it becomes a problem for you, ridiculously so. Like, it was something I could not let go. And and I would revisit it with her and I would say, you know something? I it it this you said this and she no.
Jon McKenney:I didn't. I didn't say this. Finally. Finally, six months later, I brought it up again and she said, guess what? I did say it.
Jon McKenney:Happy now? It's like, I don't know what to do with that. You know, you just go I mean, at least it was an honest moment, but okay, well then that's where we're at. So behind the scenes for me, it was this torture of I said that, didn't say it, I did this, I didn't do it, and never being able to resolve conflict. And it absolutely drove me to the edge of crazy things.
Jon McKenney:It really did. I felt like I was going nuts. You know, it was gaslighting at its worst. It's kind of like coming home one day and going, which car did you drive? Well, drove the red one.
Jon McKenney:We don't have a red car. We have a blue one. Well, our car is red. No, it's blue. And then you come home tomorrow.
Jon McKenney:Well, how's the green car? And the story would change constantly. And I'm sure that if I went back today and articulated the story, she would have already made up some other kind of story in her head to absolve herself of responsibility. And she believes that to be the truth. So in this particular situation, my pastor heard her, but did nothing with it, to be completely honest with you.
Jon McKenney:He just took that and was like, no violation here. You mean you married somebody you don't love and that's not a violation? But he didn't do anything with it. And people don't believe you when these kinds of things happen.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is just heartbreaking. I mean, you and I are really good friends. I think I call you my bestie.
Jon McKenney:You do.
Padideh Jafari:So I can't like, it really just hurts me to know that you spent the twenty five years of your life, like pivotal years of your life, right, with this person. A churchgoing man. You're doing all the right things. And here she has the audacity to sit there and say, I never loved him. And that might have been your only time that she's ever been honest
Jon McKenney:with you. Do realize that right? Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:But it's like we've said this before. Think on one of the earlier shows you said I think it was Luke actually who asked us, what made you stay? Like asked both of us, what made you stay in these narcissistic marriages? And you said habit. So when you're telling this story, John, I'm thinking, why did you go home with her?
Padideh Jafari:I would have been like, you know what? I need to go visit my parents for a couple weeks, or I need to go get a hotel room for a couple of weeks. I need to really process this because I can't imagine going into the same marital bed with someone that just said, don't love you.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. It's ridiculously painful. And these are the kinds of things that wind up with a covert narcissist. These battles are private, you know, so it can happen with just you and nobody else. Where where if you have an overt narcissist, everybody is, yeah, they're they're nuts.
Jon McKenney:You know, they they lash out. They're aggressive. They might tell other people they don't love you. But with a covert narcissist, it all happens behind the scenes, and they are more interested in their public persona and how they are received by the public than absolutely anything else. So what what take what winds up taking place is, you know, the the Chinese water torture in your marriage and and you're gradually going crazy.
Jon McKenney:And after twenty five years of these kinds of things, you can imagine the insanity. It's like, just can't hear one more lie ever again. I I can't I can't hear the pretending. I can't hear the story. I can't you know, we decided it this way.
Jon McKenney:No. We didn't. We did it this way. It would it would drive you absolutely nuts with the revisionist history. And then ultimately, I had a harder time, I think, hiding my emotional self than she did.
Jon McKenney:She didn't care. And for me, I was down. I was discouraged. It made me all kinds of emotional in different kinds of ways. So you wind up looking to the public like the crazy one.
Jon McKenney:And when the when the divorce comes and you you leave, they go, oh, look. See? He's just he's just crazy. He's just acting out. And they go, Oh yeah, it's terrible.
Jon McKenney:And then they side with the narcissist and don't want to hear the story of the victim.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you are spot on with that. I remember one time I also had a moment at the pastor's office. It was actually my pastor's. It was a male pastor and then his wife also served along with him.
Padideh Jafari:And we were in it was like being called in the principal's office. Okay? You never want this. And so we went. It was really at the tail end of our marriage.
Padideh Jafari:The pastor said, you need to forgive. And you need to do all this stuff. And I said, listen, I will take him back. I will actually take him back because I still loved my ex husband. I said, I will take him back if you come and live with us.
Padideh Jafari:And he said, what do you mean? And I said, no, no, no. I want you to come live with us for just the next thirty days. And I want you to see the abuse that I am suffering because nobody believes that this man they knew he had cheated. He had left me for a much younger woman.
Padideh Jafari:They knew that. But that wasn't enough for the pastor to say, Okay, you know what? You can divorce him. It was like, no, you need to forgive. And the pastor's wife, who I'm still friends with her to this day, she said she turned to her husband and she said, he did her a favor.
Padideh Jafari:Because biblically, she can be divorced now because of the adultery. And so I didn't realize, John, what I had said when I said it, obviously, fifteen years ago. But now when you just share that story, because was my ex was a malignant. But of course, had some Malignants also like to look like the good guy and all this stuff. And my ex husband looked good on the outside.
Padideh Jafari:But the inside, there was nothing there. He was literally a shell of a person, had no morals, had nothing. And so here, I said this to the pastor. And it made sense now because it was like nobody was seeing what I was dealing with at home.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Yeah. It it it's it's very hard to prove because, again, covert narcissists covert narcissists work so hard on their public persona. Correct. That when when the time comes for you to kinda go, this is going on, everybody around them is so snowed, and their public persona is so positive.
Jon McKenney:They go, I just can't believe that this is true. And here you are, you know, enduring this ridiculous abuse behind the scenes, and you don't know what to do with it. You know, one of the other things my ex pretended away, she confessed to me at one point in time that she had an emotional obsession with another man, and that she was out looking for him during the day and in stores. She was she was looking for him wherever she would go. And I I was glad that in a rare moment, that's one of the rare times I felt like she was honest with me.
Jon McKenney:And I thought, you know what? If she can tell me this, she can tell me anything. And I thought it was really gonna be a growth point. And we I prayed with her, and I told her it was gonna be okay. We just needed some more honest conversation.
Jon McKenney:And I asked her two days later, hey. How are you doing with the emotional obsession with the ex boyfriend? She goes, I don't know what you're talking about.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my gosh.
Jon McKenney:So so you can't ever you can't ever move through a conflict. You can't ever resolve a conflict. You can't ever agree on a story. If you do agree on it, this time tomorrow would be different. And then if you agree to that story, then you go back again, and that story is different again.
Jon McKenney:And then it might come down to the first time. And it it really is an exercise in I don't know how else to say it. It's really just a mind fuck. I it's I I know it's a terrible word, but I I don't know how I don't know how else to describe the intensity of of how bad these kinds of things are for the mind and the heart over a period of time. And it literally again, it's I'm sitting here racking my fingers thinking about it.
Jon McKenney:It is it is absolutely horrific. And the sadder part is that other people will believe them over you.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. And that's the other thing that nobody really talks about is not only does the narcissist when you leave the narcissist, you've lost sort of the love of your life, right? They're not the love of your life because they have no capacity to love anybody but Absolutely. So you've lost the love of your life, and then you lose all the other people. Like, sometimes family members believe them.
Padideh Jafari:I know with my ex, day that the cops were called, the night that the cops were called and everything and he had to leave the house, my brother took him in not knowing anything really that happened. But he was like, look, he called. He had no place to stay. He said that you got into some argument. And I was like, what the heck did you do?
Padideh Jafari:And so I was estranged from my brother for it was a couple months. And then my brother's girlfriend believed him because he went to their house. And so I was estranged from her for a couple of years, actually. Wow. So it's like all those little people that are not so little in your life, they also take those people I know with you.
Padideh Jafari:Like your parents are believing her, the sisters, the this, the that. So it's heart wrenching for the victim because you lose churches. I was lucky that my church said I could stay, obviously. Now I was a divorced woman. But I left because of my own shame.
Padideh Jafari:And so because there's shame attached to all of these things. And so yes, it's really difficult. But the mind F that you just talked about, oh, I completely remember it, John. And as you're talking, it's so triggering because it's like, that's why I know you journaled a lot just during your marriage and your divorce. That's why I always tell clients, as soon as you can, start to journal.
Padideh Jafari:And they're like, I don't know how. I'm like, well, write a timeline. This is what happened. This is what was Because you're going to go back to it. And I want you to recall some of that stuff because they're going to say it was different.
Padideh Jafari:No, it wasn't that. No, it was this other way. And it's like, you don't know who to believe. And because you desperately love this person, you're trying to hold on to them, you're going to say, Okay, maybe I need to doubt myself because maybe that's not what I heard. And I could be wrong.
Padideh Jafari:And so they have you in such a low point in your life that you're constantly doubting yourself.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. I had to I had to keep a journal of what she said so that when she went back to it, I didn't think I was going crazy, literally. Correct. So she would she would say something, I'd write it down. And then when we revisited the story a couple of days later, you'd go, what what did I say?
Jon McKenney:I I had to go back literally to the to what I'd I'd journaled so that I could actually see for myself that I wasn't going crazy. And here's the thing. Their public persona is so good that the people around you don't even wanna hear Correct. What's really happened. Like, you may not even get you may not even get to tell your side of the story ever because their their persona is so good.
Jon McKenney:People go, they just dismiss you. That's just it's just not possible. Correct. And and all the while they're they're sabotaging the relationship. And, you know, we we talk about departure departure.
Jon McKenney:I I really do think something needs to be said about that as well with covert narcissists. Oftentimes in narcissistic circles, talk about something called the discard. And the discard is where the narcissist just one day goes, okay, I'm leaving. Bye. And leaves you.
Jon McKenney:And and you've been working at this relationship, and they've they're they're emotionally done with you, so they just physically walk away. And overt narcissists do that. A covert narcissist more often than not will not leave you. Now they will they will divorce you emotionally. So you you're in the same you're you're in the same house.
Jon McKenney:You're sharing the same space. And they will they will emotionally remove you from their life if you were ever in there to begin with anyways. But there there is this idea of the discard, and they discard you emotionally, and you are left living in the same house with this person who wants emotionally absolutely nothing to do with you. Right. And and and if the relationship ends, when it comes to covert narcissists, they will push every button you have so that you end the relationship instead of them.
Jon McKenney:Why? Because you gotta go back to this public persona is absolutely everything. I know when I, I told my ex that I'd wanted a divorce, At first, she kinda was agreeable. Like, this is just painful. So I don't I don't wanna go do this anymore.
Jon McKenney:Then she talked to my parents. And after she talked to my parents and she realized that she could be the victim in this and that there was going there was something to win on the other side of this, it all changed. Now, oh, I don't wanna get married. I don't wanna get divorced. And and she ran this victim card and she's continuing to do that five years later.
Jon McKenney:And and and then when you divorce, you're the aggressor. You're the crazy one. You're the one who's leaving them. You're the one who's leaving their family, and they get to play the victim to this crowd of this public that's watching on as this takes place. And again, you get blamed for it and they look great.
Jon McKenney:So I personally believe that most of the time, the covert narcissist will not leave you. They will push you to the point where you leave them. And whether they say they're doing it or not, they generally won't, they are trying to sabotage the relationship with you from day one.
Padideh Jafari:One hundred percent. I agree with that. I think also, we often say that the covert narcissist is usually female. What female do and I've seen this through my practice, John is that they will push, push, push, like you said, the buttons. And then they will get a restraining order.
Padideh Jafari:So they'll come into your office. Instead of asking for a divorce first, they ask for the restraining order. But they're not the victim. They're the aggressor. And I want to just say here, this is, again, Amber Heard, right?
Padideh Jafari:Like, she's filming him thinking that she's going to use this against him when all the while she's just pushing buttons. Listen, I'm happily married. I know what to say to push my husband's buttons. I know exactly what to say. Wives know that.
Padideh Jafari:We just generally do. Husbands know that, too. I'm not just saying it's a wife thing. But if you're pushing their buttons to get a reaction and then you pull out your iPhone and start filming them, there's something incredibly wrong with you. I actually had a couple of years ago a client that did that.
Padideh Jafari:And so she came in with the iPhone and she was like, look, look, look, look, look what he's doing. Look what he's saying. He's yelling at me. He's screaming at me. He's calling me all these names.
Padideh Jafari:And she was so aggressive in the way that she wanted me to believe her story that I just was like, Okay, this woman sounds like Amber Heard. And so that was my gauge. And I said, well, let's go back for a minute. Where did this all start? How did this start?
Padideh Jafari:Oh, well, I hid his phone. I said, you hid his phone? I said, why did you hide his phone? Oh, well I was going through it and then I hid it and so he couldn't find his phone but he knew that I took it because I had taken it previously. And then she says, John, he was going to work.
Padideh Jafari:So I said, you expected him to leave without his phone to work. And he's like a sales guy, so he definitely needs his phone. And he knows that you've taken it because this is a pattern with you guys. And now you're telling me that he's screaming and yelling. Not that that makes it Okay.
Padideh Jafari:But like, so what did you do? And so I knew right then, I'm like, this woman has narcissistic tendencies. Because I never say that they're a narcissist because I'm not a psychotherapist. I don't have that degree. But I said, I hear what you're saying.
Padideh Jafari:It does not rise to the level of domestic violence. But I do think that a different firm would be a better fit for you. And whenever you say that to them, they just dig in their heels even more. Like, why? Why?
Padideh Jafari:I want you. And it's like, I don't want to represent you, and I will not represent you. And so that's the thing is exactly what you said. Very much want you that's what reactive abuse is. Reactive abuse is like you push an innocent person to the brink of snapping.
Padideh Jafari:And they snap because even good people have their limits, and they should.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:They should have boundaries. And
Jon McKenney:then when they lash out, you cry foul and say they're abusing me.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. And you film it, too. A lot of times, we'll have now they'll film it. They'll be like, look, look, look. This is what's happening.
Padideh Jafari:Or they'll tape it. But you're only hearing half of the story. And most people, to your point, don't ever care, or they're too busy, or they just don't give a damn to say, like, what like, how did this person get triggered? Like, oh, you're purposely triggering them? Like, she's saying to you, like, look, I'm looking for my ex in supermarkets.
Padideh Jafari:And you're going, wait a minute. I mean, I'm surprised that you didn't get triggered then. I'm sure you did. But that would be so hurtful to hear from someone twenty five years into the marriage. Oh, And say, okay.
Padideh Jafari:So let me get this straight. You're actually sleeping with me, but you're thinking about someone else, clearly. So Yeah. It's just all this is so heartbreaking.
Jon McKenney:One of the things you you'd mentioned also, you talked about the financial abuse of covert narcissists. Can you describe some of that? Because financial abuse often comes with narcissistic abuse because narcissists tend to find a ton of value in money. I know that was the case with my ex. She was all about money.
Jon McKenney:She would even go to the store and try and buy cheap stuff so that, again, we could save money on this or that, and then go spend extravagantly on other things or the kids or something like that and spend money we didn't have. So talk about the financial abuse as you understand it from covert narcissists.
Padideh Jafari:Well, I can give you a great example of this because it literally just happened this past weekend. Financial abuse sometimes goes along with litigation abuse. But financial abuse is basically the covert narcissist wants to get money. Their god is money. So I've never met a covert narcissist that wasn't interested in money because that money goes with status.
Padideh Jafari:It goes with their public persona, like you said. They have nicer cars. They have the big houses. They do the facials every week. They do the Botox.
Padideh Jafari:They do all of the things, right? Because their outside is more important to them than what goes inside. And so they're not seeking therapy. They're not going to wellness retreats. They're not doing any of that stuff.
Padideh Jafari:They're just fixing the outside. And so I can give you a great example of this. This past weekend, we were at Wisconsin Madison, like I said. And my husband was very adamant that we wanted to focus on our middle child who was graduating because we don't get a lot of time with him. Right?
Padideh Jafari:He was graduating. Now he's going to be starting a job and all that stuff. So his ex said, no, I want the other two kids to come. And the other two kids are in different states. And my husband said, look, I'm not paying for this because hotels were $650 a night, John.
Jon McKenney:Oh, yeah. They raise them up during graduation.
Padideh Jafari:Right. So I had booked it a month in advance. And one night there was $650 which is a lot. I'm a lawyer. My husband works as well in financial services.
Padideh Jafari:But that's still a lot of money. So he was adamant, like, I don't want to spend that kind of money. And so he told his boys that. He said, dad can't do it right now. And they understood it.
Padideh Jafari:And they said, well, mom's going to take care of it. And he said, Okay, great. And so we get there. Everything is great. After graduation, she had not planned a single thing, not a lunch for her son, nothing.
Padideh Jafari:Literally had to go from restaurant to restaurant to restaurant to find somewhere to eat. I had booked something a little bit later, like at 07:00, just because I wasn't sure after graduation if she wanted to take them. So I was being really respectful. So we literally go restaurant to restaurant to restaurant. It's like 90 degree weather.
Padideh Jafari:Whenever we get there, everything's good. This is the first time she's kind of sat with us. And we're talking. We're laughing. The boys are they're on edge.
Padideh Jafari:You can tell that they're on edge. But they're sort of like, Okay, the parents are finally getting along. And I offer to get her a drink and the whole thing. So I didn't say this out loud because I wanted to you always hope for the best. Sunday night, before we got on our flight, she sends an email, this long email, to our youngest son because we are no contact with her.
Padideh Jafari:And says, send this to your father. And what it said was, I'm so glad that we were able to sit down and have lunch together for the first time ever. Please give me some money for the airfare, the food, the, hotel. You know, and, you know, this would be really great if you would give me some money. And it would show that your sons that you are supporting them.
Padideh Jafari:Now, my husband didn't tell me this until Monday when we got back to California because he knows I would have been stewing the whole time I'm on the flight. But he said, I wanted to tell you that she wrote this and she sent it through our youngest son. And am I a bad dad? Should I give her something? And I said, look, you've paid four years of college tuition at a very expensive school.
Padideh Jafari:It's like $90,000 a year, John. You've paid $1,600 a month in housing. You paid every month $550 for food. You've done
Jon McKenney:all of And she's asking for airfare.
Padideh Jafari:Right, some money. And usually, here's the thing. We're very generous. And people that deal with narcissists or we're married to narcissists, they're usually really good people. They're usually empathic people.
Padideh Jafari:They're sympathetic. And it's like, yeah, let me give her a couple but my husband's like, if I give her $500 she'll say that's a slap in her face. If I give her 1,000 it's not going to be enough. Like, no amount of money would be enough because it's not like she even produced receipts. I had already given our oldest son $400 towards his hotel room because I he's 26, he works.
Padideh Jafari:And I was like, well, let me at least pay half of it. And so I had already done that. I didn't need her to sort of be policing this stuff. But all that to say is this is just one example, that they are always price gouging you. They are always price gouging for whatever reason.
Padideh Jafari:I can give you another example. My ex husband was unemployed. We had just gotten a five forty five that he wanted. I did not want this five forty five. I love BMWs.
Padideh Jafari:But I was like, we cannot afford this car. We were about to leave. We had leased the car. We're about to leave off the lot. There was a five fifty in front of us.
Padideh Jafari:He goes, we should have gotten the five fifty. Now, there is a huge difference between a five forty five and a five fifty, right, price wise. And they're just never happy. It's this insatiable appetite for material things. For you know, I need all three boys to be there to take the pictures for Instagram and Facebook.
Padideh Jafari:Because I'm mother of the year. But I have not spent 1p on tuition and housing. Nobody knows that because who could you tell that to? Well, you can't advertise that. But look at all these pictures that I have with my kids.
Padideh Jafari:And so it's just this perpetual need for this outside image. And it's at the victim's financial expense, though.
Jon McKenney:And money is also control and they like to be able to narcissists on the whole whether overt or covert, tend to like to be able to control their victims and particularly financially. Know when we first got married, I took care of the bills in the house and we had debt and we were within a couple of years debt free. And she said, you know what, I've got a really hard time with that. Want to do that. I just can't know what's not being spent and not being spent.
Jon McKenney:And from that moment on, we would incur debt. And and it was frustrating. And even even to the point where, like, towards the end, the last four or five years, she would kind of obsess over my credit card. But why why did you go to AutoZone? Well, I bought a water pump for the kid's car.
Jon McKenney:Like, I'm going and having a good time with my Visa over at AutoZone. You know? She and she'd go through my credit card statements meticulously. What's this for? What's that for?
Jon McKenney:What's this for? What's that for? And then and and this happened all the time. So I can remember, you know, once it came time to divorce, this person who's meticulously ridiculous with with my credit card and obsesses over it. And I'm pretty certain that we've got you know, I've got a maybe a $3,500 balance on the card at the time.
Jon McKenney:And I thought she was kind of riding the same thing on her credit card. And then when the divorce came and all the paperwork was in front of me, her credit card debt was $20,000.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney:Yes. And and, again, I I was responsible for half of that half of that in the divorce. On top on top of that, I have some older cars and things like that, and she would talk about me to my children about how I spend all of our family's money on my cars. I I remember sitting down with one of them and going, okay. Let's here's here's the math on my cars.
Jon McKenney:You know? I drive old cars. The parts are cheap. Here's what we're spending on your mother's car monthly in a car payment, and hers is was ridiculously high, compared to mine. So they not only abuse you financially, they'll accuse you of doing the financial abuse and then tell your family and everybody else around you that you're the financial abuser.
Jon McKenney:So so these kinds of things happen too, and put it all together, and you have one very difficult person to manage. And, again, the most difficult thing I think about a covert narcissist is this. It is a private battle that you wind up fighting by yourself. And oftentimes, the people around you who you think love you will not believe you, And it'll drive you insane.
Padideh Jafari:Right. I mean, we know that it drives them insane because we both have people that reach out to us that have committed suicide, have attempted suicide. We have a mom. Her daughter committed suicide because her ex was a malignant narcissist. I mean, it just goes on and on and on.
Padideh Jafari:And so if you're listening today and you think, let me make this work with my narcissist, believe me, there is a life that they are having behind your back that you have no idea what is going on. You have no idea. I mean, and it's not a little thing. It's not like even what John said, like a couple thousand dollars here and there. Well, mine was 3,800.
Padideh Jafari:I thought maybe she carries. It's like $20. I mean, $20.
Jon McKenney:Got off easy compared to some I know. And some are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Some are millions of dollars in debt from the spending of some of the the narcissists. It it can be ridiculous. You know?
Jon McKenney:Dollars 20,000 is an awful lot of money to me, but in the grand scheme of things, I perhaps got off easy compared to some.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, and then once you file for the divorce, then they will financially abuse you through the court system. California is a very slow court system. It takes six months to two or three years. With a covert narcissist, it could take five years to get divorced and get all the finances together. So it's going to be very difficult.
Padideh Jafari:They do love money. I think they actually worship money
Jon McKenney:I would disagree.
Padideh Jafari:Incestuous way. And so I know for a fact even yeah. I'm just thinking of some things, John. And I'm like, I should not say it because it's so scary.
Jon McKenney:The stories swirl, that's for sure.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, but what they will do, what they will have their spouses do for money, it's really bad. So I just want to caution people that if you're thinking of leaving, you need to make your escape and not tell them you're leaving. Because if you tell them you're leaving, they'll turn on the charm again. And they'll promise to go to therapy, like John said, and all the things. But these people don't change.
Padideh Jafari:Only get worse as they And that is actually a fact. That's actually a study came out that said that narcissists actually get worse as they age, not better.
Jon McKenney:Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Experience was this. And again, I was fighting for her and trying to speak the truth to her. For every truth you give them about themselves, they cover it with a lie. Truth, lie.
Jon McKenney:Truth, lie. Truth, lie. They always cover the truth with a lie. And somebody who builds their life on deception and lies is is is not improving. They're getting worse.
Jon McKenney:So that's why over time, the the deception is worth the lie worse. The lies get worse, and you ultimately have a person who's ridiculously difficult to to even live with. And Right. It's it's it it winds up and and, you know, you talk about divorce and things like that. The the sadder part of it, I think, for covert narcissists particularly is they have to go through it alone.
Jon McKenney:And the divorce also, when they get to that point where they pull the plug, like the the last button has been pushed. For me, the last button was when my ex pretended she had cancer. When they push that last button and you go, I got it. I gotta get the hell out of here. I can't do this anymore.
Jon McKenney:You are at your absolute emotionally lowest point where you have to go through this this scenario and this situation that requires the most emotional energy to endure and to negotiate so that you can get free, you wind up not having the kind of energy perhaps somebody else might have to go through it.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Mean, divorce is hard for anyone, but if you're divorcing a narcissist, it's a million times harder, and especially if you're going through custody and all the things that we see in our practice. So well, I think this was insightful. I hope it was insightful.
Jon McKenney:Really was.
Padideh Jafari:And so I'm so glad that you are done with that relationship, John. I mean, as your friend, it just it's so painful to listen to you talk about the nuances in the story, some of the stories I haven't heard before. And so I just encourage people to make a plan and escape these relationships because the aging narcissist is brutal to deal with. I
Jon McKenney:appreciate that. And the good thing for me is that I have that angst inside me anymore. I don't have that feeling. I've kind of moved on from it, and it is what it is. And I have a a new life that's immeasurably better, than that.
Jon McKenney:And, and that that life is available to And, there is another side to this if you're in it, and as I'm sure many of you are who are listening to this, it does get better. It does take time, but it it is it is worth it, and, and you will come out on the other side with nothing else. If if you get nothing else from it, you get peace without question. So thank you for the time, Padida. You know, this was this was a really good conversation.
Jon McKenney:I hope that people as they listen, to what we describe and the stories can identify and know beyond a shadow of a doubt the kinds of person or the kind of person they might be dealing with. So, John McKenney here at the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel and my friend, Padita Jafari, my dear friend, I really do appreciate you and can't wait to see you, next month. I'm really looking forward to that and, I hope everybody has a wonderful day.
Padideh Jafari:Thank you. Bye bye.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handled narc. Podcast. The guest's views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.